XNA Posing Studio XPS 11.8.8 -- Thumbnail Edition -- release 188

AnimanXPS wrote:Nice to meet you. I have been using XPS since this year.
When I knew this software, I was very happy that the update was made recently because there was no update for a long time.

I am not familiar with the history of the community, but I am sad that few people are concerned about software advancement and withdrawal.

This software is mostly used for porting existing games, but it may have many other uses as well.
Many 3D softwares, especially those with animations, are tight on HDDs and too heavy. However, XPS does not have those drawbacks.
It is portable and very light file size and good performance.

What I consider a drawback with this software is that the alpha channel is not output cleanly during PNG export. There is a fringe.

XNAaraL, what specifically do you want? Your software is not only a port tool. It has excellent properties as a 3D viewer.
I am not rich. So, continuous support is difficult but it is possible to donate for sometimes. Your work is worth it.

Hey AnimanXPS,
welcome to the forum.
I have watch your animations on DeviantArt. I like it.

I do not speak English, so my words can easily be misinterpreted. Nice you like my XPS. I do not want donations for my work. On the contrary, I reject any kind of donations. With "support", I means that kind of comments like yours. Just a kind of (constructive) feedback on XPS. More a "feed forwards", some ideas ...

I have never notice  that the alpha channel is not output cleanly during PNG export. To be honest, I do not understand what exactly you mean by that (Export as .obj ? Render a texture to screen? Save a image with "alpha" mark on? ...).
It would be helpful if you can deliver an example. (The model;  The steps you've done; Whatever it is).

XPS supports a kind of "animations" since XNA Posing Studio 10. That was just a basic "frame by frame animation" system, written to say "Bye Bye" to the tombraiderforums.com (TRF) community.
At this time, I had "host" a "modding competiton" to solve this  https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=5245551&postcount=60 issue. To present the "winners" of this competitions, I have made this animations:

The time between the voting and the announcement of the winners was very short (and I needed 4 animations for models with different skeleton). So I have extended XPS with a new function. (Not satisfied, but i has a strong deadline)
At least, the user tarcairion has detected that do the lips in the animation form the words "bye bye" ?" . https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=5363803&postcount=11 Thats was right.
One of the many "history about XPS"

Thank you for reply, XNAaraL.
What is published in DeviantArt is a converted version, but recently I create an animation myself.

I also use translation services in English. I am sorry if I made a mistake in the way of communication.
And I understood your idea. Thank you for taking my opinion constructively.

The PNG exports I'm talking about are "Save Image" and "Quick-save Image".


I prepared an image with a pink background.
You can see pink pixels remaining at the border between the background and the model.
This is what is called fringe in PhotoShop and can be removed, but it would be nice if it could be improved with XPS.
but, since your Ivy's animation has no fringes, my way may be wrong. In that case, I'm sorry.

What I think is superior in XPS is that it is easy to portable-software and easy to rename bones.
The bonedict feature is great. And it's great that you can edit the pose file manually.
Many 3D animation files can not be edited manually. However, XPS pose files can be edited with a text editor.

AnimanXPS wrote:Thank you for reply, XNAaraL.
What is published in DeviantArt is a converted version, but recently I create an animation myself.

I also use translation services in English. I am sorry if I made a mistake in the way of communication.
And I understood your idea. Thank you for taking my opinion constructively.

The PNG exports I'm talking about are "Save Image" and "Quick-save Image".


I prepared an image with a pink background.
You can see pink pixels remaining at the border between the background and the model.
This is what is called fringe in PhotoShop and can be removed, but it would be nice if it could be improved with XPS.
but, since your Ivy's animation has no fringes, my way may be wrong. In that case, I'm sorry.

What I think is superior in XPS is that it is easy to portable-software and easy to rename bones.
The bonedict feature is great. And it's great that you can edit the pose file manually.
Many 3D animation files can not be edited manually. However, XPS pose files can be edited with a text editor.

thanks for the image. And thanks for the information(s) eq "feed forward"
+ pink background.
+ pink pixels remaining at the border (outline)
+  "Save Image" as .PNG with "alpha" ON and "Quick-save Image".

Now, I see your problem. No I can try to reproduce this issue. I had never this problem over all the 10 years I use XNALara or XPS.

One more question(s):
1) Is there always this "fringe"? Have you try to save in "size" 100% and (lets say) 200% ? Is the outline always the same pixel amount?
2) Do the "antialiasing" options of your video card device "alter" or solve the "fringe"?
3) What is your video card?
4) What version of XPS do you use? (I guess 11.8.


also thanks for the informations that you like
+ rename bones
+ pose files as ascii text files

thx again for your support :hug:

Thank you for your quick answer!

1) Yes, this fringe exists regardless of the magnification.
However, the higher the magnification, the less noticeable the fringes (the fringes seem to have a width of always 0.5px ~ 1px)

2) I overwrote the setting of XNALara XPS.exe from the control panel of the video card, but it has no effect.

3) GeForce GT320.

4) The version used is 11.8.8

as you said, this may be a video card issue.

At home I use an old, poor GPU GeForce GT320.
There is a better performing video card available elsewhere, so I'll try later days.

AnimanXPS wrote:Thank you for your quick answer!

1) Yes, this fringe exists regardless of the magnification.
However, the higher the magnification, the less noticeable the fringes (the fringes seem to have a width of always 0.5px ~ 1px)

2) I overwrote the setting of XNALara XPS.exe from the control panel of the video card, but it has no effect.

3) GeForce GT320.

4) The version used is 11.8.8

as you said, this may be a video card issue.

At home I use an old, poor GPU GeForce GT320.
There is a better performing video card available elsewhere, so I'll try later days.

thx that is all I have to know. Now I have to search the root of the problem. and I have to sleep some hours)

GeForce GT 320  .... Shader Model: 4.1 ... is just fine (XPS require shader model 2 and recomment shader model 3)
A "better performing video card", do not produce any better performing in XPS

EDIT


Just a stupid idea: Try to mark "Speech Bubble" under "Options-->Post processing parameters"

I hope this problem is solved. And thank you for your work.
There is no need to hurry. Proceed at your pace when you have your time.

If I check Speech Bubble, it seems that the alpha channel will not be saved.
In "Save Image" and "Quick-save Image", the dialog of Select Image Size disappears (or grayed out).

AnimanXPS wrote:I hope this problem can be solved...

You have a "private note" on DeviantArt

XNAaraL wrote:

AnimanXPS wrote:I hope this problem can be solved...

You have a "private note" on DeviantArt

Thank you, I checked it!

Hello XNAaraL. I started to use XPS a few years ago, and I just wanted to thank you and to say that it's great to see that you keep updating XPS, because I think it's a nice and usefull tool. Personnaly, it enables me to study poses, lights and shadows for drawing. Moreover, your software led me to start learning 3D, due to its ease of use (I knew nothing before ^^'). Hopefully we'll see more updates of your software with new features. By the way, do you think it's possible to add more light settings in the future, like spot or point lights ?

wwbl wrote:Hello XNAaraL. I started to use XPS a few years ago, and I just wanted to thank you and to say that it's great to see that you keep updating XPS, because I think it's a nice and usefull tool. Personnaly, it enables me to study poses, lights and shadows for drawing. Moreover, your software led me to start learning 3D, due to its ease of use (I knew nothing before ^^'). Hopefully we'll see more updates of your software with new features.
By the way, do you think it's possible to add more light settings in the future, like spot or point lights ?

Thanks for this very appreciated comment.

Maybe some posts in this thread should be moved into a "feedback" or "feature request" thread, to keep things organized.

It is always very interesting to know what XPS is used for. This information helps to steer the development in the right direction. It's more fun to program extensions that are valued and used than spending time on what nobody needs or wants.

Unfortunately, many extensions have been requested and implemented in the past, which wastes limited hardware resources and has apparently never been used. Features like "extended mesh format" (NGFF in XPS 11.6 ), "shader plugin API" (User written shader in XPS 10.9.8 ), "multi passes shaders" (XPS 11.6 ), "multiple UV-Sets" (XPS 10.9.7 ), "script plugin API" (XPS 10.9.8.7.6.5.4 ), "Speech Bubbles" (XPS 10.9.5 ), "Real bump mapping support" (XPS 10.8.8 ) ...
All these additional features cost something! "Cost" in this context does not mean monetary costs or cost of time expenditure. Cost in this context means that you get something, but at the same time have to give (lose / get rid of) something else. The extensions waste limited resources that now are not available for other purposes. Sometimes, to implement something new, you have to give up or simplify existing functions. Sometimes an extension costs performance, sometimes it costs memory (RAM) space, sometimes it prevent to make other extensions ...
In this context, for me XPS 11.6 is the version which most prevented the further development of XPS. Just read the list of updates / features of XPS 11.6. Which ones are used?
Most of the limited resources (memory, registers, instructions) are wasted by:
XPS 10.8.8              (Real bump mapping >Flags dialog)
XPS 11.6                 (multiple UV-Sets)
XPS 10.9.8.7.6.5.4  (C# script interpreter)
XPS 11.6                 (HLSL shader compiler)
XPS 10.9.1              (no bone per mesh limit)
XNALara 9.3           (RG 22/23 with 7 textures -- Diffuse, Lightmap, Bumpmap, Mask, Bump1, Bump2, Specular)
XNALara 9.6           (RG 28/29 -- support metallic reflections AND full bump mapping including mini bump maps)
all versions             (Error correction by loading models which ignores the Armature requirements)

Almost nobody uses these extensions. There are even some, like TheForgottenSaint47 or Izack, who claim that these features would not exist!


This leads back to the topic

wwbl wrote:...
By the way, do you think it's possible to add more light settings in the future, like spot or point lights ?

I do not intend to implement more light sources such as a point light or a spot light. On the other hand, I never say never.

In fact, there was already a version of XPS (for Beta tester) which has implemented a spot light.
XPS 10.9.4 - Spotlight Edition - alpha 9
The spotlight was at first a fourth source of light. For this, the light dialog has been altered. Thereafter, the number of light sources was reduced to 3 again, but each of these light sources could be switched from directional to spot or point light.
There was no acceptance for this extension. There was not even a response. Therefore, and due to the resource cost, the extension has been deleted.
It is no pleasure to redevelop something that has already been cancelled in advance.

In the meantime, there are already some extensions for point lights, made by the XPS users:

As model Spotlight for XNALara/XPS

https://www.deviantart.com/dasliebesverbot/art/Spotlight-for-XNALara-XPS-553087232

As "user written shader"  XPS Realistic Lighting Overhaul 1.0

https://www.deviantart.com/comments/1/781728082/4743036803

It would be a waste of time to reinvent the wheel. If someone wants to do it, there are many tutorials about it, such as 'XNA Shader Programming – Tutorial 17, Point light and self-shadowing'
To refer again to the "cost" of such a shader (a shader is a small program that runs on the graphics card):
Think of a car with a "convertible" back seat. You can either carry more people or more baggage. Both on the same time do not work because of the limited space.
The  limited space on your video card is
a)  "register" (variable) to store values for the (light) calculation. The Microsoft XNA Framework 3.0 limit is 64 register, each with 4 float values.
b) "instruction slots" to make the arithmetic calculation. The Microsoft XNA Framework 3.0 limit is 64 instruction slots for shader model 2 and 512 instruction slots for shader model 3.
The cost for a single point light is (at least):
instructions:
Already currently (since XNALara 8.0 release 092) XPS supports up to 3 independent light sources. Note that for all 3 lights to work, your graphic card must support vertex and pixel shaders v3.0.
A fourth light source works, because of the number of required instructions (and register), only for users with a video card which supports the Shader Model 3. This restriction is acceptable. 512 instruction slots are also sufficient for a 4th or 5th light source.
register:
Each of the three shader models supported by "Microsoft XNA Framework Redistributable 3.0" can use a maximum of 64 float4 registers.Since may 2010 (XNALara 8.3.7) has reached  the maximum of existing registers!
For a point light, we require as register
 :: First of all, we need to transfer the "light position". Need for it are 3 floats, eq one (float4) register.
 :: We need to declare a light range. Need for it are 1 float.
 :: A shadow value. Need again 1 float value.
 :: The light data (color). Need for it are 4 floats, eq one register.
Together at least 3 of the 64 registers. Therefore, it must be removed something of the existing features, for each of the XPS shader (about 60 shaders). The question is, what can be done without? If we leave the registers needed for the real time posing, then just under a dozen registers are still available for all the effects. The point light alone requires a quarter of it. A spot light needs even more (light cone ...). What deterioration will users accept? Dispensing of specular maps? I think not, and that would just cut down one of the registers. But we need three of them!
If I had the choice, I would remove the "tangent space normal map swizzle coordinates". But then a lot of the models, made of lazy "porters", would look very bad.
If you want to see it with your own eyes "how bad", just download THIS model and load it into XPS (without any change).

https://servimg.com/view/18527642/10
"Sir Croft" had the download link removed for this reason, after XPS 10.8.8 had supported "Real bump mapping", but a dullard user (Luser) want to get clicks (reputation / watchers) by reupload it.
"Sir Croft" fix of the normal map was

https://servimg.com/view/18527642/11

No matter what functionality is omitted, or what effects are simplified, the number of people who will cry out when they lose something is always greater than the joy of innovation. And some dunderhead will always cry and reupload somethings.

Many thanks for the time you took to give this instructive answer. I understand now better how works XPS and its limitations.
It's interesting to know that some features were removed/added for some versions of XPS, because it's possible to download each one and switch according to the needs.
Also thanks for the resources you shared, I didn't know everyone and some of these may be usefull.
Taking account the cost of new extensions, how do you consider the potential development paths of XPS ?

wwbl wrote:Many thanks for the time you took to give this instructive answer. I understand now better how works XPS and its limitations.
It's interesting to know that some features were removed/added for some versions of XPS, because it's possible to download each one and switch according to the needs.
Also thanks for the resources you shared, I didn't know everyone and some of these may be usefull.
Taking account the cost of new extensions, how do you consider the potential development paths of XPS ?

In XPS was never any feature removed. I had always added new features.
In the past, tt has always been possible for me to replace an existing feature with another equivalent function that requires fewer resources.

Ex:
:: Disable/Enable lightmaps
+ In XNALara version 8.36, it was possible to disable / enable the textures "Diffuse map", "Lightmap" and "Bump map"

https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=4644951&postcount=36148
- For XNALara version 8.37, Dusan had removed the enable light map option, because the DirectX 9c limits --> https://www.tombraiderforums.com/showpost.php?p=4645539&postcount=36157
++ Since XPS 11.8, you can Disable/Enable lightmaps and specular maps, metallic maps ...
I never remove something. I search for a better algorithm that requires fewer resources, to do the same

:: Unlimited bones per mesh
- Before XPS 10.9.1, there was the DirextX 9c limit "Maximum 52 (59) bones per mesh".
+ Now, since XPS 10.9.1, you can use more than 32000 bones per mesh.
It was a lot of work necessary to make possible what is impossible. I'm proud and satisfied with this solution.
I never remove something. I search for a better algorithm that requires fewer resources. to do the same

To download and use an outdated version is never a good idea


Taking account the cost of new extensions, and my experience, I  consider the potential development paths of XPS like all the 10 years:
 Do not optimize but revolutionize. Break the Limits by being creative. Never say never. Impossible is just a word made for unimaginative individuals!  

Oh I see, well that was a misunderstanding (english isn't my native langage), I'll keep using the last version then.
I like your way of thinking things about the development, it looks like everything is possible    .I'm curious to see how XPS will look in the future, sadly I can't be a great help because I know nothing about programming, I'm only able to share my feedback and suggestions.

wwbl wrote:Oh I see, well that was a misunderstanding (english isn't my native langage), I'll keep using the last version then.
I like your way of thinking things about the development, it looks like everything is possible    .I'm curious to see how XPS will look in the future, sadly I can't be a great help because I know nothing about programming, I'm only able to share my feedback and suggestions.

Nice to meet you!

Spotlights are not good for real-time rendering.
I think, XPS is good for creating scenes in real time quickly.
By using software well, we will get great results.

XNAaraL wrote:Taking account the cost of new extensions, and my experience, I  consider the potential development paths of XPS like all the 10 years:
 Do not optimize but revolutionize. Break the Limits by being creative. Never say never. Impossible is just a word made for unimaginative individuals!  

I am very like to use this software because XPS is easy to use (thank you for your recent bug fixes).

I thought it would be nice to be able to switch between perspective and orthographic if you suggest new features.
can get almost orthographical results by minimizing "field of view", but it would be more convenient if switching is easy.

AnimanXPS wrote:Spotlights are not good for real-time rendering.
I think, XPS is good for creating scenes in real time quickly.

Point lights do not cost performance. Spotlights cost only insignificantly in performance.

AnimanXPS wrote:thank you for your recent bug fixes).

n.p.
1. Works the workaround (black "Background Image" in XPS 11.8.8 )?
2. Solve the XPS 11.8.8.2 Beta version the issue?

AnimanXPS wrote:I thought it would be nice to be able to switch between perspective and orthographic if you suggest new features.
can get almost orthographical results by minimizing "field of view", but it would be more convenient if switching is easy.

Right, 5 degree  "field of view" is almost orthographical (0 degree is orthographical ).
Next week, I make a "Beta" test version with hotkeys (and / or with "context menu") for:
:: Orthographical perspective
:: Front View
:: Left View
:: Right View
:: Back View
:: Top View
Thanks for the suggestion :hug:[/quote]

Yes, the black screen export you presented,
and the XPS 11.8.8.2 fix is working perfectly!

I recently sent a report on DeviantArt's Note, post it here as well.

------------------------

1. What version of XPS do you use?
11.8.8 (and Thanks! Tested 11.8.8.2)

2. What model does this happen on? Please post a download link.
I use Lara(lara_tra_hd) which is include in XPS11.8.8

3. Please open XPS and navigate to Help>About. Post a screenshot of this window.
VS_3_0. PS_3_0

4. Run dxdiag on your PC and post a picture of the Display 1 Tab and the System tab.
5. Please save the .scene file from File>Save scene... and upload it along with the file called XNA.cfg, located in the folder with the XNALara XPS.exe.
I uploaded Sta.sh

sta.sh/021pcq9yjju7

*include Export PNG images in XPS11.8.8 and XPS11.8.8.2.

Your prediction is correct. In 11.8.8, if the background is black, no fringe will occur.
A bright color produces fringes.

And thank you for providing a test exe for me.
In 11.8.8.2, no fringe occurs in any color. I think you have successfully solved the problem.

------------------------

And look forward to the test beta version you are planning to create!
Thanks!

PNG alpha transparency and anti-alias problem

AnimanXPS wrote:Yes, the black screen export you presented,
and the XPS 11.8.8.2 fix is working perfectly!

I recently sent a report on DeviantArt's Note, post it here as well.

------------------------

1. What version of XPS do you use?
11.8.8 (and Thanks! Tested 11.8.8.2)

2. What model does this happen on? Please post a download link.
I use Lara(lara_tra_hd) which is include in XPS11.8.8

3. Please open XPS and navigate to Help>About. Post a screenshot of this window.
VS_3_0. PS_3_0

4. Run dxdiag on your PC and post a picture of the Display 1 Tab and the System tab.
5. Please save the .scene file from File>Save scene... and upload it along with the file called XNA.cfg, located in the folder with the XNALara XPS.exe.
I uploaded Sta.sh

*include Export PNG images in XPS11.8.8 and XPS11.8.8.2.

Your prediction is correct. In 11.8.8, if the background is black, no fringe will occur.
A bright color produces fringes.

And thank you for providing a test exe for me.
In 11.8.8.2, no fringe occurs in any color. I think you have successfully solved the problem.

------------------------

And look forward to the test beta version you are planning to create!
Thanks!

Thanks for this.

I try again to understand how to find a better fix to this annoying issue. That thing is simple (or should be simple),  if you have an image with transparency info (alpha channel) you want it to show nice no matter the background. In the image below you see a pink halo in the borders that looks horrible. The same happens if the background is white or black, you see white or black borders.
There is a severe interaction between anti-aliasing and binary transparency.

Code:


                graphicsDevice.RenderState.AlphaTestEnable = true;
                graphicsDevice.RenderState.AlphaFunction = CompareFunction.GreaterEqual;
                graphicsDevice.RenderState.ReferenceAlpha = 200;

Because the background colour of the image is mixed in with the foreground colours, simply replacing a single background colour with another is not enough to simulate transparency. There will be a whole host of shades which are mixtures of background and foreground colours. The effect in this case is a pink halo around objects, because the original image was anti-aliased to a pink background colour.
Some solutions https://denysalmaral.com/2016/05/3ds-max-png-alpha-transparency-problem.html

Now, I can reproduce what happens on your system

^^^ That is your scene file ^^^
And now, I can verify my "blind" solution try). This makes now debugging much easier.

BTW:
This BUG was already in XNALara, since 10 years. Nobody had noticed it. Maybe nobody has used settings similar to yours.

^^^ That is XNALara 9.7.8 ^^^


Note:
It is an  visual artifacts caust by the edge anti-aliasing issue (Antialiasing and Anisotropic Filtering)

Left: Anti-Aliasing disabled
Right: allows "EdgeAntialiasing"

My problem to solve is now: Antialiasing and Transparency
Switching the background for a transparent render target (image), to prevent the "halo" (fringe) effect, is not a solution
Now I will try to make that Microsoft's PNG's can provide support for varying opacity (but the Antialiasing is controlled by the video card device driver, and not controllable within XPS)

Conclusion

Antialiasing and transparency are two effects that depend upon each other to get good results.

Both must be implemented together in the renderer of XPS (without being able to predict which background color the user will use).
Leaving a part of it to the video card driver was a wrong decision (since 10 years; XNALara 1.8 -- release 009:  it's now possible to export screenshots with alpha channel).
Leaving the choice of background color to the user was a good design decision in XNALara 1.4 (release 005 custom background color menu options), but makes it difficult to implement an acceptable result.

Anti-aliased images contain a lot more colours than aliased ones, which puts pressure on the colour allocation strategy.
Variable transparency is most easily implemented with a truecolour image formats, because if any image pixel may be mixed with the user agent's background colour or texture in any proportion, the total number of colours in a displayed image can become quite large. It should can be implemented in a colour-scarce PNG provided an off screen buffer is provided to composite the image before reducing it to the current palette.